The Roadmap
6. Is Talmud Law in Order or Disorder?

The Roadmap — Let the Rabbis tell us about the Talmud. Why is this fundamental book of Judaism unknown to most Americans?

Navigate This Site
	Home
	Valentine
	Dilling
	Talmud
	The Rabbis
	Supplement
	Glossary
	Download
	Admin

You can help in the battle for Truth, Justice, and the American Way! Fight the forces of censorship and suppression of the Talmud, and bring about understanding between peoples of different faiths.
 
Download this site to your desktop computer. Make CDs and distribute them to friends, neighbors, ministers, and community leaders. Email your favorite essay to your email list. Post your favorite essay to discussion forums. Print your favorite essays and give them to those not on the Internet. Flyers advertising Come-and-Hear.com can be distributed throughout your community.
 
Genuine Come and Hear™ CDs do not contain executable programs. When making CDs, do not include any files that end in .exe, .com, .bat, .vbs, .doc, .pif, .sit, or .scr. The person receiving the CD should use his own browser to view the files. This helps to protect him from harmful programs and viruses.

The Soncino Talmud was translated by world-renowned Talmud and Hebrew/Aramaic scholars. It was the first complete English translation ever published, and it has been the standard, commonly accepted rabbi-approved English translation for more than six decades.
 
Accolades for Soncino. Praise for the Soncino Talmud appears on the dust jacket of the 1961 Edition:
 
"The rendering is accurate and scholarly … In particular the translators deserve praise for their choice of suitable equivalents for technical terms and phrases that are difficult to turn into another language." — The Times Literary Supplement
 
"… this translation of the Talmud will open up for the English speaking readers the most varied and indispensable index to the collective wisdom of the post-Biblical Hebrew mind, and afford direct knowledge of the ordinances which have governed and continue to govern the religious institutions and social polity of the Jewish people." — the late Rabbi Dr. A. Feldman, Dayan of the Beth Din, London
 
"I offer my heartiest congratulations to all who have worked together in producing this translation of the Talmud into English. They have dealt with the enormous difficulties of their tasks with remarkable skill." — The Rev. Dr. R. Travers Herford, author of Christianity in Talmud and Midrash and Talmud and Apocrypha
 
"The Editor, Dr. Isidore Epstein, and his band of scholars have produced a translation which is a marvel of skill in dealing with the formidable difficulties which the Talmud presents." — The Jewish Chronicle
 
"The Soncino Talmud is … an adornment for any library, a hallmark of intelligent Jewishness in a family … an unfailing source of inspiring information to the students of every creed and race." — Jewish Forum
 
"It [the Soncino Talmud] will have value for Gentile as well as Jewish scholars." — The Manchester Guardian
 
"These volumes are magnificently produced, and will assuredly take their place among the monuments of modern scholarship." — The Yorkshire Post
 
For an attestation to the usefulness of the Soncino Talmud General Index, see the Very Rev. the Chief Rabbi Dr. Israel Brodie's Foreword. (18)

In More Critical Words of Talmud Study, our rabbinical scholars discussed the early Sages who were involved in organizing the Mishnah. We learned that Hillel was an early organizer, followed by Akiba (Aqiba), who was in turn followed by Judah the Prince.

Gemara Organized

The Very Reverend the Chief Rabbi of the British Commonwealth, the late Dr. J.H. Hertz, writes of the organization of the Gemara. He mentions the work of Ashi and Rabina.

Ashi, who died in 427 and was for fifty-two years head of the Sura Academy, combined a vast memory with extraordinary mental orderliness, that enabled him to systematise the bewildering mass of Talmudic material and prepare it for codification. Such codification was finally effected by Rabina, who died in the year 499. He is the author of the concluding paragraph of the Amidah: ‘Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile; and to such as curse me let my soul be dumb, yea, let my soul be unto all as the dust.’ Many tractates seem to have been edited by various Amoraim before the time of Ashi and Rabina. As in the case of the Mishnah, it is a moot point whether Ashi and Rabina wrote down the Babylonian Gemara, or only arranged it orally. The latter is the view of Rashi, and, [page xxiii] in modern times, of Luzzatto; both of them place the writing of the Gemara two centuries later. Other scholars, however, deem it a matter of absolute impossibility that so vast a literature, and one, too, full of such intricate controversies, should for some two centuries have been orally arranged, fixed and transmitted with perfect accuracy.

— Rabbi Dr. Hertz (1)

Evaluating the Results

What were the results of all this organization, the Mishnah earlier, and then the Gemara? The experts disagree. Rabbi Dr. Jacob Neusner discusses this issue in his "Foreword" to Rev. Dr. Abraham Cohen's Everyman's Talmud. Rabbi Dr. Neusner cites Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz:

One of the principal difficulties in studying the Talmud is that it is not written in a systematic fashion; it does not move from simple to weighty material, from the definition of terms to their use. In almost every passage of the Talmud, discussion is based on ideas that have been discussed elsewhere, and on terms that are not necessarily defined on the page where they appear.

— Rabbi Steinsaltz (2)

Rabbi Dr. Neusner quotes Rabbi Steinsaltz again:

Viewed superficially, the Talmud seems to lack inner order — The arrangement of the Talmud is not systematic, nor does it follow familiar didactic principles. It does not proceed from the simple to the complex, or from the general to the particular … It has no formal external order, but is bound by a strong inner connection between its many diverse subjects. The structure of the Talmud is associative. The material of the Talmud was memorized and transmitted orally for centuries, its ideas are joined to each other by inner links, and the order often reflects the needs of memorization. Talmudic discourse shifts from one subject to a related subject, or to a second that brings the first to mind in an associative way.

— Rabbi Steinsaltz (3)

Then Rabbi Dr. Neusner cites Robert Goldenberg:

Evidence suggests that various centers of rabbinic study developed their own such collections [of Mishnah-commentary], though in the end only one overall collection was redacted … for Babylonia. For several generations, the collections remained fluid. Materials were added, revised, or shifted. Free association led to the production of extended discourses or sets of sayings that at times had little to do with the Mishnaic passage serving as point of departure.

— Robert Goldenberg (4)

Rabbi Dr. Neusner disagrees with those views:

The Talmud is not a mere compilation of this and that, the result of centuries of the accumulation, in a haphazard way, of the detritus of various schools or opinions. In fact, when we outline the Talmud beginning to end, as I have done in my four volume work, The Talmud of Babylonia: A Complete Outline,' the results do not indicate a haphazard, episodic, sedimentary process of agglutination and conglomeration. They point, quite on the contrary, to a well-considered and orderly composition, planned from beginning to end and following an outline that is definitive throughout. That outline has told the framers of the passage what comes first-the simplest matters of language, then the more complex matters of analysis of content, then secondary development of analogous principles and cases. Steinsaltz is wrong: the Talmudic compilers always move from simple criticism of language to weighty analysis of parallels. There is a fixed order, and it governs everywhere. The authorship always claims to discuss the Mishnah-paragraph that it cites, and it discusses that Mishnah paragraph.

— Jacob Neusner (5)

Important Lessons

This material demonstrates these important lessons:

1. The rabbis are not entirely uniform in their ideas of the Talmud,
2. An honest difference of opinion concerning fundamental aspects of the Talmud is not necessarily heresy or anti-Semitism, and
3. A student who disagrees with a famous rabbi is not necessarily wrong: possibly other highly qualified rabbis agree with the student, or will agree in the future.

On a side note, these quotes show that at the very least, if the Talmud is orderly, the order is not obvious. A student not fully attuned to the order that Rabbi Neusner perceives might easily be puzzled. Our own preliminary studies have shown that a ruling on the legal status of women might be found in any of three Seders, scattered among any of a dozen tractates. (There are 6 Seders and 63 tractates in the Talmud.)

This is not intended as a criticism of the Talmud or the Talmud Sages. It is merely an argument for the necessity of a comprehensive subject index, such as Soncino provided in the 1961 Edition. (6)

Thank you for your consideration of the above,
Carol A. Valentine,  Ear at come-and-hear dot com
July 14, 2003 ( This article is on line at http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/ordchaos.html )
 

NEXT:   The Roadmap 7: The Talmud Lives for Jews 
 

Navigate Carol Valentine's America Under the Talmud — Will It Work for US?
Howdy!	The Roadmap	Censorship	Death Penalty	Blood Ritual	New America

Navigate This Site
	Home
	Valentine
	Dilling
	Talmud
	The Rabbis
	Supplement
	Glossary
	Download
	Admin

Endnotes:

This and other Come and Hear™ Studies on Talmudic Judaism can be found online:

http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor

The Jewish Religion: Its Influence Today by Elizabeth Dilling, complete with all 300 exhibits, can be found online:

http://www.come-and-hear.com/dilling

Soncino Babylonian Talmud tractates, with Forewords, Introductions, Glossary, List of Abbreviations, and footnotes. Now you can study the Babylonian Talmud in full context and with the running commentary of the finest scholars of Judaism:

Tractate Berakoth: http://www.come-and-hear.com/berakoth

Tractate Shabbath: http://www.come-and-hear.com/shabbath

Tractate Yebamoth: http://www.come-and-hear.com/yebamoth

Tractate Kethuboth: http://www.come-and-hear.com/kethuboth

Tractate Nedarim: http://www.come-and-hear.com/nedarim

Tractate Nazir: http://www.come-and-hear.com/nazir

Tractate Sotah: http://www.come-and-hear.com/sotah

Tractate Gittin: http://www.come-and-hear.com/gittin

Tractate Baba Kamma: http://www.come-and-hear.com/babakamma

Tractate Baba Mezi'a: http://www.come-and-hear.com/babamezia

Tractate Baba Bathra: http://www.come-and-hear.com/bababathra

Tractate Sanhedrin: http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin

Tractate Abodah Zarah: http://www.come-and-hear.com/zarah

Tractate Horayoth: http://www.come-and-hear.com/horayoth

Tractate Niddah: http://www.come-and-hear.com/niddah

Tractate Tohoroth: http://www.come-and-hear.com/tohoroth

Search the Talmud http://www.come-and-hear.com/tindex.html

Download all the above resources for local study, CD, or mirror web site:

http://www.come-and-hear.com/download